Anatomy of a Burnout

00:00:00: Welcome to The Psychiatric Mind, the official podcast of European Psychiatric Association.

00:00:05: Your space for expert conversations on contemporary psychiatry!

00:00:36: member team, and as an alumni.

00:00:38: now we would like to talk about how important is leadership into creating a safe space in a resilient environment.

00:00:47: Olivia Randauer is consultant psychiatrist at Honorary Clinical Senior Lecture of Parks and the London School of Medicine.

00:00:55: He's clinical director in Islam And he's faculty associate from the Leadership Academy.

00:01:02: He was, by the way, former chair of the early Marie-Eleptite Catholic Council.

00:01:12: Welcome to this episode!

00:01:14: Hi David and thanks pleasure for being here.

00:01:16: Thanks For The Invitation.

00:01:19: I would like to begin our conversation about your CB because you were a former Chair Of The ECPC.

00:01:27: i guess that someone who has already been in this ECPC chair is now in hospital leadership as clinical director.

00:01:35: being in this consultant position, how do you recognize yourself?

00:01:41: Do you find that the same issues are happening?

00:01:44: what used to complain as a trainee.

00:01:47: Like How did it change the view from these voluntary and old words To management work?

00:01:58: I can tell i am In The Early Career Psychiatry Committee That sometimes we tend from our positions to say, management should fix it.

00:02:08: How is this part of being actually part of the management regarding hospital leadership?

00:02:14: That's a good first question!

00:02:19: I will say that getting into medical leadership position... ...is certainly very steep learning curve.

00:02:30: whilst you get there step by step There still are moments where you realize that there's always more to learn and it is a lifelong journey, I would say.

00:02:46: So certainly having had previous leadership position like representative of trainees in the representative of early case like at least then values or their roles i might have had The more You progress ,the more you understand other side and the leadership management aspect of things, how important they are.

00:03:11: And therefore key it is to get good training... ...and a good experience.

00:03:17: with support around that in part why we created actually the EPA Leadership Academy.

00:03:24: as a checker an early career psychiatrist really held that project and convinced EPA That it was important.

00:03:33: if you didn't need much convincing to be honest, but yes.

00:03:37: It was quite a work that she did.

00:03:39: so that's part of why we think is the importance.

00:03:42: because other.

00:03:43: Psychiatrists from medical students who are training to educate psychiatrist and then climbing the ladder?

00:03:52: You never really get any training in leadership management.

00:03:57: And so

00:03:58: I can relate.

00:03:59: Yes eventually your work when you have a team You supervise trainees, you work with nurses and the whole military team of psychologists, occupational therapist.

00:04:13: Nobody ever tells how to deal with a team or even be part of it?

00:04:21: That's big gap in our medical education.

00:04:28: so depending on where your work there might get that training.

00:04:35: But as part of the core training, becoming a psychiatrist there is very little that's available and parts... As a standard it was part of our training.

00:04:47: so we really think we need to develop more.

00:04:52: What do you find remarkable selecting this episode?

00:04:55: You were making your medical thesis especially in this aspect in Barnard because And you were like extracting that long hours and this lack of supervision, not having a safe space.

00:05:13: What strong risk factors for these?

00:05:16: stress disorder called BARNA?

00:05:19: From your experience what can these young psychiatrists do to get the better mentorship?

00:05:27: Others ask how they perform organizations so that down psychiatrist are mentoring them.

00:05:36: So first, I was only part of the burnout study that Nikolay Jovanovich and Julian B's whole bled.

00:05:42: It was leading on a French branch for it.

00:05:46: but you're absolutely right here Supervision mentoring there are key factors to prevent burn out.

00:05:54: obviously Burnout is very complex psychological phenomenon And therefore they did this completely multifactorial.

00:06:03: But There is good evidence and certainly on a day-to-day basis, it's also very apparent to anyone that supervision is absolutely the key factor in preventing burnout.

00:06:17: So I think there are two sides of it.

00:06:20: if we're thinking specifically about provision or as a trainee and any member of staff to be honest but asking for supervision certainly turning up to supervision and engaging with supervision, bringing relevant topics to supervision.

00:06:43: In supervision the trainer also has a responsibility in showing that it's important is protected.

00:06:52: time is absolutely key.

00:06:55: Showing interest as well just like the supervisee bringing themes, getting to know their supervisors as well is absolutely key.

00:07:02: And knowing what they're more interested in making them gaining a bit of building a bit trust and Making sure people feel safe too share whatever They might want to share.

00:07:13: some people may not initially come and say oh actually I don't know that Then my thing are going be told off because they should know everything which obviously shouldn't Be the case.

00:07:24: so yeah Building that space and making sure that the supervisee, person receiving supervision feels safe enough.

00:07:33: And we'll come back to it later I'm sure.

00:07:38: But first is showing an interest.

00:07:40: as I've said.

00:07:41: That means also if for whatever reason The supervise doesn't show up Showing.

00:07:47: you have noticed It's not like happy.

00:07:49: You get extra hour in your diary and can do more admin work Because now...it is important.

00:07:55: when you notice they haven't attended It doesn't mean necessarily telling them off, you know things can happen and things can slip.

00:08:01: But marking that it's a time of value is also important to you.

00:08:08: And I do believe institutionally there are responsibilities for making as i've said before supervision an expectation rather than something nice but the vital part working efficiently and safely in an institution That provides health care.

00:08:26: Having that time for supervision is absolutely, absolutely key.

00:08:31: Now as a trainee or more junior member of staff having the lack of authority I guess in their role can be tricky because us-as a trainee for example to think about that level but even early case psychiatrist you often have lots of responsibility already whether that prescribing, giving directions making decisions clinical decisions all the time without full authority and it's a bit of a tricky balance to navigate.

00:09:08: And I guess on the question of lack of authority i would say something everyone should probably get used No matter how senior or junior you are, You'll always have someone more senior than you and you'd always feel that there's more That could be done.

00:09:23: That is not necessarily completely without your u-reach.

00:09:26: I think it Is important to acknowledge doubt Whilst empowering people as well And then making sure that People are aware they have actually more influenced than they think already even if They don't have the full formal authority.

00:09:44: people might listen To what?

00:09:47: So there's also the gray area of what is not necessarily directly under your authority, but what you can influence.

00:09:54: And that can be useful to think about through including into provision.

00:09:57: or do you directly have authority on?

00:10:00: What is completely within your remit and new authority in water is more than bits that you can negotiate.

00:10:06: influence trying to have discussions about two gear people too much people then any direction that she would like.

00:10:16: Having lack of time, having limited resources is the reality in our European countries.

00:10:22: But it's never an option from my point of view being early career psychiatrist to skip this supervision appointment Exactly because as you said You will always feel a bit less health Because we'll have always this mismatch between responsibility on control, as in higher positions you will have someone above you with more experience and background.

00:10:46: so that would be really advisable.

00:10:48: never to keep a supervision appointment.

00:10:52: Regardless how is the bed and whether it's here regardless or the person of resources.

00:10:57: take this time because if not an auction as Olivia and Laura said is our resource especially when we'll have more demand.

00:11:06: talking about works.

00:11:08: If we read the recent works of these psychological safety, climatic organizations it shows that this high psychological safety higher what do you call an environment where people can be heard when mistakes are spoken?

00:11:29: kind of buffer strength and especially builds this residue.

00:11:35: Even in moments with high demands, like these studies have been performed intermediate care units for example.

00:11:43: But at the same time being in Switzerland we've started to trace physicians and had stigma talking about burnout.

00:11:52: because of this stigma they don't open up.

00:11:55: so it's kind of each other... Like if you go into a circle that they feed each other.

00:12:03: This is sparnal, this is stigma.

00:12:04: so doctors with sparnals are the ones who are stigmatizing more their own mental health and the doctors with full mental health don't share much about their issues.

00:12:16: So they got indeed these symptoms of these cognitive disorders which fall as well as stress.

00:12:25: From my point of view it's still an open issue.

00:12:32: So talking about that, what does a truly safe psychosocial work environment look like to you?

00:12:41: What are the steps that you would do as junior psychiatrists with no power but with this engagement.

00:12:49: To organize your Scado in this Monday morning to overcome these initial fears?

00:12:58: Yes there's certainly some values views on on doctors and resilience, how they should be all-powerful never vulnerable or in a difficult situation.

00:13:16: And certainly I do think especially kairosakaches will have the very strong positive influence of that.

00:13:26: there will environment where showing a degree of vulnerability won't welcome And I think that in my mind, that ease a problem.

00:13:38: Now obviously it's not about whining all day long... ...about working conditions and whatnot.

00:13:45: It has its place.

00:13:46: Obviously if you're working because they are NOT good then that needs to be said and called off.

00:13:52: But doctors usually never complain.

00:13:55: That is the other way around.

00:13:56: Always tell doctors when you start thinking, maybe you should take the day off because he got the flu.

00:14:02: It probably means You should have taken in yesterday and you should be still of today.

00:14:06: it's.

00:14:06: I've seen that time-and-time-and Time again where people say oh i think i'm a bit exhausted like yeah you were exhausted three months ago And even if your incredibly cynical and don't care about yourself its still in there in the team and institution's interest to keep people well.

00:14:27: So obviously there is a human aspect to it, hopefully they do care about their teams and colleagues or workers.

00:14:34: but I guess even if you didn't... It's no one's interests.

00:14:41: have people burning out feeling exhausted Now?

00:14:47: the question of talking about this Is next step?

00:14:51: And i really believe that things have changed.

00:14:55: I see it in my clinical practice, young people who wouldn't have dared to seek help partially stigmatised and discriminated against.

00:15:08: group usually are not the same access to healthcare or mental health care as other groups that already had a disadvantage from start.

00:15:20: you know, TikTok and social media spreads.

00:15:25: And there's a lot about mental health on those meters.

00:15:28: Then I do think it influenced positively the ability to say well i think am struggling now... ...and not okay just talk about it.

00:15:37: There is a cultural shift I believe but I think its important that people also role model out again.

00:15:43: Not about everyday coming in looking incredibly depressed at work and feeling terrible, but again that's not how people do.

00:15:52: It will be like tentatively into provision.

00:15:55: you know why I think i'm struggling a bit at the moment.

00:15:58: oh i think they're gonna take it too much now.

00:16:01: thats what we'll happen.

00:16:04: if its not that space then people would keep with that for long time.

00:16:10: And prevention is always better than cure, isn't it?

00:16:14: So actually having that release and being able to talk through at the early stages.

00:16:19: It's really important.

00:16:21: And I can say it lacks because... I imagine Oliver talking about these first stage like in those two years where the risk is higher for just a burnout.

00:16:31: Like an engaged doctor who wants to learn everything he wants to transfer from the underdrug way.

00:16:38: so he says or she says just do everything.

00:16:41: So and you have been also working in different health systems, You've now solved part of this study where the French coordinator could we know from your side which systems are like more open for these well-being?

00:16:57: Which ones are able to promote well being?

00:17:03: talking about European style because the differences were the same.

00:17:07: The factors were long hours, no supervision regardless of the country.

00:17:11: But talking about prevention early stage which system do you see as could be a better example from your experience?

00:17:20: From what have been examined and so far?

00:17:24: I'm not going to make very many friends today.

00:17:35: I haven't worked in Switzerland, but we went to visit quite a few hospitals over there and i always look at students as a model.

00:17:41: so you can tell me if u think that's the case.

00:17:44: Now are your gonna make friends or not?

00:17:47: I think systems have embedded supervision... But again it is not enough.

00:17:52: I can simply say with confidence in England and UK supervision is the norm for trainees at least the absolute expectation.

00:18:00: weekly supervision trainees and more often not, I do believe it happens because otherwise you get into trouble with the health education angle.

00:18:08: And then other authorities like that take away your trainees.

00:18:12: so said It does matter in those happen.

00:18:14: That doesn't mean that necessarily working conditions are amazing enough or thus The other factors that come into play even with amazing supervision.

00:18:20: if If the job's really undoable than obviously people will also struggle to dust a broader aspect and comment on that.

00:18:30: But developing a safe environment, psychological safety.

00:18:36: we work in an environment where are not in the vacuum?

00:18:38: And maybe think good have been seen as really touchy-feely too gentle for doctors.

00:18:45: so now becomes big topic.

00:18:47: I believe it's relevant again beyond preventing burnout of psychological safety is absolutely key also to work well As simple as that does include preventing burn out.

00:19:02: but i think just to have a high functioning team.

00:19:06: You do need psychological safety because then you can't have proper discussions properties agreement which will likely be better care.

00:19:16: Now it's like a case of the second school safe thing about that is important to also say.

00:19:22: cycle safety is not so cool comfort, there's no just being nice and comfy never been challenged.

00:19:29: it's actually the country to that.

00:19:32: It is also being able to develop and be stretched in challenge, but within a safe zone.

00:19:39: And Amy Edmondson who is professor of leadership at Harvard, she definitely says something along those lines that psychological safety on its own... ...is not about making people comfortable or developing people Because psychological safety without a bit of performance is just comfort or apathy.

00:20:04: Whereas psychological safety with clear expectations and trying to develop people, and stretch people... ...and give them more responsibility in autonomy and authority That's where people will thrive because they'll see that they are trusted And not we- They're pushed too far!

00:20:21: And now there..that's where they can learn.

00:20:23: otherwise just sitting very comfortably in a comfy nest, protected from the outside world and never learn or develop anything.

00:20:32: So it's really finding that balance obviously not stretching people too much at all but simply giving them that space also to develop.

00:20:42: I understand being resilient means to expand this learning zone.

00:20:48: what we say is the ecological safety every one of us wants expanding from inside.

00:20:57: I understand you currently want to empower, give responsibility and competencies but still making the system accountable because of course management power is pressure on beds for example with other financial issues.

00:21:13: But if we extend it from inside then people get more feasibility in the task they are supposed to perform.

00:21:23: So I guess that this balance is an important leadership

00:21:29: truth.

00:21:30: Yes, i think so.

00:21:33: a lot of leadership theories now also insist on the motivation inspiring people and for me we're talking about early case architists are in really unique Position and therefore unique opportunities to bring a fresh look.

00:21:55: often if you're the beginning of your career, If u take on your post.

00:21:58: You will see things with fresh eyes?

00:22:02: Nobody sees anymore because it's just part of their daily weekly routine And people don't even think about questioning.

00:22:11: So there is really that opportunity.

00:22:15: On top of it early guys are catchers.

00:22:17: usually we'll have train recently and therefore will have gone through various placements and rotation.

00:22:23: So on top of it, they'll see that things can be done here or this way somewhere else.

00:22:32: so by nature there are other ideas about how to do things.

00:22:37: not only the opportunity bring a fresh eye but also already seen different ways of doing the same trying achieve the same outcome.

00:22:48: And that really brings a lot of opportunities.

00:22:50: and I was thinking, That's it.

00:22:52: Really good test for the workplace where someone arriving in new role or place is doing it sensitively but bringing you ideas to see how they are received whether people have an interest in this fresh pair of new eyes?

00:23:08: Or were there just shut down.

00:23:09: because all those how we've always done not why asking questions is tiring.

00:23:13: We don't want change.

00:23:15: So on the other side, if people have an interest.

00:23:17: And often I've heard new joiners in various teams where we're at work being asked actively from someone say well this is a key moment The first few weeks.

00:23:32: please take note of what you see and questions do.

00:23:35: Please tell us what to see What question?

00:23:39: Why were not sure?

00:23:40: why are doing it that way or working those ways?

00:23:43: because it might be a good thing.

00:23:45: You think that's actually a good idea, but also bits you're less sure about than maybe are not optimal or have seen them being done better somewhere else.

00:23:54: at least in your mind they look better.

00:23:56: so doesn't mean arriving and collecting.

00:23:59: I know better then you when i'm gonna tell how to do work But at the same time is really an opportunity.

00:24:08: The reception of reaction from this system can tell a lot about the culture and in the team or institution.

00:24:18: And I think this fresh air is so important, new post with leadership can bring you up personal reflection if you dare to say maybe there are not things i don't want that come across to me.

00:24:29: with these words we can begin to make it more safe space.

00:24:34: With this feedback culture.

00:24:37: sometimes We do notice as leaders as early career psychiatrists watch for an influence we have in the team with small symbols, our mood.

00:24:47: For example if you are like someone who tends to micromanage too much or avoid tough conversations I guess it makes a big difference.

00:24:57: so i would like to ask you regarding your career how do you check your own impact?

00:25:03: what can help you make personal reflection of leadership style especially regarding residents the pushed environment.

00:25:14: Well, I think there's a few things.

00:25:16: firstly if residence wants to come into your team that is good sign.

00:25:18: usually it goes with what we were saying before wasn't?

00:25:22: There are also various ways of getting feedback which one part reflecting as leader and asking for directly whether or not anonymously.

00:25:39: There's also, it goes with what I was saying before as well is that culture of trying to reflect and learn.

00:25:47: And being open in just asking people including tracing supervision, how's the supervision going?

00:25:52: Is that working for you?

00:25:54: Am i asking too much about this or something we're missing ?

00:25:59: I think also shows a signal yourself are ready review how you're working and that your open to that.

00:26:07: so one thing not want one style or one.

00:26:10: set up my work for.

00:26:13: One trainee won't work for the next one who will have different interest with me at a different time in their training.

00:26:18: well other different personality, i guess.

00:26:22: actively seeking feedback through big processes and sending millions of question is anonymously two million people up to just micro readjustment.

00:26:33: are we still in the right place?

00:26:36: I know one thing quite early, my career that struck me was one of my boss.

00:26:46: Yeah, regularly asking is this meeting still working or it's still achieving?

00:26:50: what you want to achieve without meetings should be just thought like let take a step back and rethink how all your work our processes or how meetings are, what we discuss in those meeting.

00:27:04: It's still relevant.

00:27:06: I found very fair interest gave me a lot of energy and enthusiasm really inspired me.

00:27:14: there was something around setting the tone as leader but to receive that feedback.

00:27:21: it is also accepting feedback if things going well, if there's something someone tells you messed up or not doing well.

00:27:28: Or should do less of or more.

00:27:31: accepting that with this humility but not taking it in a sleep personally?

00:27:36: But I'm accepting and reflecting on it then thinking what can we make out of that?

00:27:43: I think leadership roles really need to know little bit about yourself needs really reflect how you function yourself as a human being and then more particularly, the leader has more responsibility that he will get.

00:28:02: The more these bits will be tested on how your respondent stress or how your responding crisis is, it's really something people need to be aware of and mindful about even in those circumstances.

00:28:20: I know In those situations, this is how I tend to respond.

00:28:24: So... ...I need to use the good parts of my response but also try to mitigate the bits that might get in their way

00:28:33: Because we're getting exactly these only well-meaning.

00:28:35: yet We will try to clarify if you have to keep on doing it.

00:28:39: Maybe It's also unintentionally a risk for Varnock instead as you said Making us step back saying Well!

00:28:47: The situation is getting like... all the way up, it's difficult to hold these big demands of this passion or this work.

00:28:57: So let us talk about that and be trustable with each other And maybe start this place in a stage of reflection especially sharing.

00:29:08: it can induce another culture and another working out instead taking into yourself becoming maybe a burnout just wanting make perfectly.

00:29:21: So I think it's so remarkable to have a style, to keep adaptable through high demands we had.

00:29:29: And i guess early careers and captains are very ambitious colleagues who talk about this new side of the fresh air but still they don't have formal power.

00:29:43: We from The Early Career Hackings Committee were their opinion that we can foster a healthier temp culture.

00:29:51: And I would like to imagine a young psychiatrist in the world.

00:29:57: you have been working, he's not in charge of anything so far.

00:30:03: What practical thing could you give her or him on this first task on Monday?

00:30:10: To make this environment with the nurses, psychologists, ergo-therapies a bit healthier and especially a bit safer?

00:30:20: Oh i think on very very very practical Monday morning basis, I would say starting with the basics.

00:30:30: Very practically in the morning when you arrive it's like really basic but just saying good morning to everyone and inquiring how people are... Just creating a little bit of connection between people think is very basic And seeing also if there's anything on peoples mind so You can then suggest with your supervisor or what the team would be good if we had a time for checking in the morning and it's only ten minutes of fifteen minute or whatever time you want to dedicate that.

00:31:00: but quick, quick check-in depending on the size of the team as well.

00:31:05: how are people and whats on their mind could beat up they have.

00:31:08: Big issue at home another day just talking about it if there feel obviously comfortable was an end within appropriate boundaries by leaving out there at the beginning of the day saying look i've got that on my mine Just so you know, but also things that work absolutely and obviously I got this big line in the training.

00:31:29: Got these papers to finish an I'm late spend a week working on it haven't done it.

00:31:36: i'm really stressed about its not my mind.

00:31:41: another team member saying well i've got this patient and i'm worried.

00:31:48: So you open those media discussion and some of them can be resolved here, in there.

00:31:52: Some might need a separate time depending on the complexity or urgency how important it is.

00:31:59: but having that space... That's little thing.

00:32:03: that certainly can increase the psychological safety within your team.

00:32:08: helps also providing lots of opportunities for role modelling.

00:32:12: showing yourself as we were talking before vulnerable not knowing everything saying even if you're the more senior in a team.

00:32:19: so i have no idea what we should do.

00:32:20: let's think about it together because.

00:32:23: What I know that we need to make a decision and not case.

00:32:27: so having also that ability to show, and give the tone set the tone.

00:32:33: nice book about setting the time before setting on that was very quick quick win to set the turn many ways and the more it goes the more you have opportunities too.

00:32:43: just show how would like people to to work together in the team.

00:33:15: keeping this overthinking us, lots of young doctors have.

00:33:19: There is two equally important ways to think about how a team can work very well.

00:33:27: there's the... How do we work together in terms of very transactional stuff?

00:33:31: Like who does what when whose role it is to do what etc.

00:33:36: and then there are more overarching themes on how are we together as a team getting to know each other And having those times where we don't discuss only about transactional stuff.

00:33:49: Where do you need to make a decision or when we need to agree on something?

00:33:53: Or develop your own plan, but what would just take time to be together and get to know each other little bit more.

00:34:00: that's also very important obviously.

00:34:02: different types of the timing.

00:34:04: I look at two.

00:34:05: all of these is this is easy to be thought out there.

00:34:08: it was so very important too.

00:34:11: makes sure people are not just considering themselves as I'm just turning up, do my clocking and a clock out.

00:34:19: Just doing my tasks on our leave.

00:34:21: not be all human being working altogether.

00:34:26: we need to acknowledge that but also reinforce the beauty of it.

00:34:31: so having people get in each other little bit increase.

00:34:36: also coming back to psychological safety even if i have something to tell you David that I think is problematic, you're more likely to listen to me if you know a bit about my life or anything.

00:34:55: You've built bridges before meaning the way you receive any kind of feedback i could give will be very different because we have relationships and not just making comments.

00:35:09: it's also an important sense being comfortable together, in a way that people enjoy.

00:35:17: You don't have to get along with everyone.

00:35:19: Belonging each other as a team even if it's your supervisor or consultant this sense of belonging makes a lot daring like ask difficult questions because when you are maybe from different background I guess not the medical side at point where your leadership style kind gets more less... organized because you notice how are my consultants working, I would like to tell the listeners that it's not ended.

00:35:50: It is a long life learning process but for us to get to know which kind of attitudes should leaders never pick up especially when colleagues from other more traditional hierarchical cultures When you have this kind of authority as a model and that should stay in the past, what would you say?

00:36:18: Like?

00:36:18: it's a controversial question I know but which kind of attitude should never be picked up for creating a safe space.

00:36:38: We all work, as I've said in an environment and whilst i believe that there would be benefits to bring us much people along.

00:36:49: As possible on the journey towards everything we discussed before?

00:36:55: If you're working a very hierarchical environment even People who have grown into this environment will be unsettled if suddenly things are completely different.

00:37:06: You need to keep it in mind.

00:37:09: come from another country where they've been used really never to question anything and wouldn't dare saying that you don't know about something.

00:37:18: They will have the same expectation for themself on their colleagues.

00:37:22: so there's probably some thing too.

00:37:25: gently think about an acknowledge so that things can move, but yeah when i say not listening if someone has a thought or suggestion, not taking the time to listen to it because people then will feel valued about you giving your time.

00:37:48: To listen their thoughts and suggestions.

00:37:51: that doesn't mean everything's possible than everyone's ID will be implemented immediately but there is a loop after what happens through this idea.

00:38:05: so let us make sure We we booked some time to think about it further.

00:38:09: all this is making exactly.

00:38:11: We have a team meeting next week, why don't you bring that in the team meetings so he can thing about it as a team?

00:38:15: So I kind of like marking out The message has been received because Jesus.

00:38:22: Oh yeah.

00:38:22: Yeah sound interesting and you shake hand when you move on.

00:38:25: It's harder in practice to actually Making it meaningful.

00:38:31: But i guess the mindset is the journey not set its always.

00:38:34: possibility to learn from each other gave chance For creating another environment that is suitable for everyone working in the team.

00:38:43: Yeah, I mean i remember when we were resetting a reflective practice In our team and was thinking obviously discussing with the psychologist and two members And say well also it needs to be psychologically safe environment or space.

00:38:58: You can't just decide that.

00:39:00: you cannot say Well now this is a safe space everybody share.

00:39:03: That's not how it works.

00:39:04: You have to build out and as you say, the lifelong process is a perpetual movement that needs to be revisited then readjusted.

00:39:16: I guess this will be part of the third leadership academy taking place next year in twenty-seven.

00:39:22: Just a spoiler for our listeners like if you could turn back your time at the chair Of The Early Career Psychiatrists Committee.

00:39:30: It's the piece of advice you would give to yourself, your past yourselves about leadership and especially about protecting Your energy in a resilient and safe environment.

00:39:44: Well I think clarity and communication are two big ones being clear as To where you want to go what goes on?

00:39:54: What vision is or what matters do You watch expect from people?

00:40:01: It's very much there for communicating that and regularly communicating.

00:40:06: I think it is important, especially if you are thinking about the early kind of psychiatrist committee then a lot of task forces in people all over them in different countries.

00:40:16: so communication is absolutely key.

00:40:21: but general CTN kindness are important.

00:40:27: whilst we don't want to say yes as before offering to help, never harms.

00:40:36: If that's something you're interested in get the time for and if you don't then yeah being still generous kind about it than shutting people down as I've said.

00:40:46: Protecting their time and energy is very important.

00:40:50: so i would say well one thing is important just do what your like because its not always necessarily good up but there are chances But also, it'll be much easier to do.

00:41:00: So there's always tasks and things that you will have to do when you don't want or like doing but certainly also focusing on what you enjoy... What is good?

00:41:12: And by that I mean if you enjoy spending time with people chatting getting to know them then doing a bit of that because its part the job.

00:41:21: If your enjoying organising then organising lots stuff.

00:41:25: If you enjoy micromanaging, then try not to do that too much.

00:41:29: But still... You'll be tempted.

00:41:31: so you will do lots of things and being mindful about it but its also been clear on there.

00:41:36: That way helps with the values in priority.

00:41:39: What are the priorities at a middle level?

00:41:41: Because than your more likely to protect And say Yes!

00:41:45: To the bits thats really More likely to enjoy and Will bear fruits and know the bit that are less likely to be.

00:41:54: anyway, for you.

00:41:57: That's not always easy and having a space that can appear is good friend or colleague who gets along with test IDs, tests... I'm not sure about this one.

00:42:11: should i?

00:42:11: Should i not?

00:42:13: But also something really valuable like an ally.

00:42:21: Hmm, I think you're overdoing it a bit.

00:42:22: this one and all.

00:42:23: This one yet don't worry about that.

00:42:26: It can help but that's different from supervision.

00:42:29: peer support is incredibly important for having uh One or two people in particular.

00:42:35: That you know And your trust.

00:42:37: and you just say Can i ask you About that because i'm not sure what do You thing?

00:42:41: I should Do then that that can be really incredibly valuable For anyone's career.

00:42:46: anyway

00:42:48: I appreciate a lot.

00:42:49: your time was not really valuable journey about positive leadership, about psychological safety concepts that in our day-to-day life.

00:42:58: In our words and outpatient centers are deficits Not only to have good patient's safety but also better quality of the patient But also to feel you're making something after your studies that it keeps rewarding and it keeps you motivated.

00:43:21: There's nothing worse to be trained after this training time, so please don't skip any supervision appointment as we said in the beginning!

00:43:33: Let's keep growing let's keep exploring in a team.

00:43:38: thanks for accompanying us on these podcasts.

00:43:49: Thank you for listening to The Psychiatric Mind, the official podcast of the European Psychiatric Association.

00:43:55: Make sure to follow us on our social media and join us next time.